Progesterone Gyno

[basskiller]

Bodybuilders have used Trenbolone and have found themselves developing gyno even though it doesn’t convert to estrogen. Gyno, also known as gynecomastia ( male breast growth), is often considered to be the result of estrogen. However, Tren has the unique ability to cause gyno without actually producing estrogen.

Role of Progesterone in causing gyno:

Progesterone is found in both males and females. It is a precursor to many important hormones in men and women. In women it plays a role in pregnancy and in breast growth. In men, excessive progesterone can stimulate breast growth, like it does with women. While Estrogen is normally the cause of gynecomastia under normal physiological conditions, Tren and other similiar steroids stimulate the progesterone receptors because they are not only anabolic steroids, but also of a class called progestins. Progestins are the synthetic forms of steroids structurally similiar to progesterone, that have the ability to bind to the progesterone receptor too. Deca and Anadrol also are progestins, but they also aromotize to estrogen, unlike Tren. Some bodybuilders coin the term “progesterone gyno”, to explain gyno from progestin steroids.

Progesterone Gyno Controversy:

There is a major debate among bodybuilders on this entire topic. Some believe that progesterone causes the gyno in Tren users. Others believe it is actually prolactin, the hormone responsible for lactation and breast growth during a women’s pregnancy. This may explain why some experience lactating on tren cycles. Others believe it is a combination of estrogens and either prolactin or progesterone, working all synergistically to develop gyno.

Who is right?

Many Research studies I’ve seen, show that estrogen plays a synergistic role with progesterone, prolactin, and in gynecomastia. Although some bodybuilders say it’s the prolactin or progesterone directly causing it, there is no studies to show gyno can develop without high levels of estrogen. Even IGF-1 and Growth hormone has been shown in studies to play a crucial synergistic role in the development of breast tissue. So I believe no matter what kind of steroid you take, lowering estrogen with anti-estrogens and avoiding stacking Tren with aromatizing steroids, is how you really prevent “Progesterone gyno”. With very low levels of circulating estrogen, it appears impossible or very difficult for progesterone gyno to develop.


by Paul Johnson

[basskiller]

Most bodybuilders are aware that estrogen can cause gyno. Most steroid users are also fully aware that Trenbolone can cause gyno when taken by itself, even though it doesn’t convert to estrogen at all. How is this possible?

Two major theories of how Trenbolone could cause gyno symptoms have been theorized over the years. They believe that Tren causes the gyno, by directly stimulating either prolactin or progesterone receptors. Anabolic steroids Trenbolone and Deca are both progestins. Deca also converts to estrogen, but Tren does not. They are not to be confused with progesterone, but instead progestins, a type of progestogen, that can stimulate the progesterone receptor. Tren even converts to a metabolite in the body, that binds stronger to progesterone receptors than progesterone itself!

Directly increasing progesterone or prolactin doesn’t necessarily mean you will develop gyno according to research. The study (J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1988 Jan;66(1):230-2) shows that progesterone works synergistically with estrogen, to stimulate breast production. According to (Clin Biochem 2001 Nov;38(Pt 6):596-607), prolactin only has a stimulatory effect on gynecomastia in the prescence of high circulating estrogen levels. Testosterone which aromotizes to estrogen caused a cause of increased prolactin according to (Acta Endocrinol (Copenh) 1984 Feb;105(2):167-72). In the same study, Clomid (clomiphene) and Nolva (tamoxifen) showed a reduction in the man’s high levels of prolactin. There is no research evidence that I have found, that points to true breast development developing with just prolactin or progesterone alone or caused by non-aromotizing steroids, without any high circulating estrogen levels. Estrogen must be at high enough levels to work synergistically with high levels of prolactin or progesterone, to cause breast development and lactation.

Whether Tren stimulates prolactin or progesterone, without at least moderate levels of circulating estrogen at the same time in the body, Tren can’t cause full development of gyno. The real solution to curing gyno caused during a tren cycle therefore, is to take anti-estrogens, to lower circulating estrogen levels. Even if you are taking Tren by itself, you still will have a lot of estrogen circulating in your blood for a few weeks, until your natural testosterone levels shut down. Sensitive people to gyno might have to use a anti-estrogen, even when taking tren without other estrogen converting steroids, to lower natural estrogen levels in the body.

Many bodybuilders recommend using anti-prolactin drugs Bromocriptine or Cabaser / Dostinex (both Cabaser and Dostinex contain active ingredient Cabergoline), or even RU-486 “The abortion pill”, which is a progesterone blocker. These drugs have side effects are expensive and not commonly carried by many sources. I have heard reports from bodybuilders that bromocriptine didn’t help them, but strong anti-aromatase inhibitors like letrozole did. Therefore, it is better to use an anti-estrogen to combat tren based gyno. The only anti-estrogen I wouldn’t recommend for combatting this gyno is Nolva (tamoxifen) because in (J Steroid Biochem Mol Biol. 2003 Sep;86(3-5):461-7) they found progesterone receptor expression increased, while it decreased with other anti-aromatase inhibitors.



from the admin of How To Gain Muscle Mass

[basskiller]

Estrogens and progesterone are two hormones responsible for female characteristics. They can be produced as a side effect of anabolic steroid use when they convert (aromatise) into these hormones. Both are responsible for some of the side effects of steroid use, eg gyno (gynecomastia - female breast tissue development in males, aka 'bitch tits'), female body fat deposition, water retention, etc.

Anti-estrogens are compounds which act to reduce estrogenic activity in the body. This is achieved in one of two ways, and there are different drugs which fall into these categories.

Anti-estrogens
Competitive Aromatase Inhibitors
Competitive aromatase inhibitors bind to the same site on the enzyme aromatase as testosterone does. This allows less testosterone to bind to aromatase, which in turn means less is converted to estradiol (the primary type of estrogen). An important point to note is that the amount of inhibitor required rises with increasing steroid dose i.e. higher doses of Arimidex or Proviron are required to prevent the aromatisation of 1000mg/week of testosterone than 500mgs/week.

Arimidex (Anastrozole)
Arimidex is the perfect choice for when using high doses of aromatising steroids, or indeed even for moderate doses if the individual is prone to gyno. It is thought that it may be possible to lower estrogen levels too much with Arimidex and for this reason blood tests are recommended to determine whether the dosing schedule is correct for maximum results, as it is theorised that some estrogen presence is required to keep the androgen receptors 'open'. Arimidex has excellent binding qualities at the receptor and therefore only low doses are required. The main downside is its price; it is very expensive

Dosing
Arimidex is supplied in 1mg tablets.
Usual dose is between 0.25 - 1mg/day. In most cases 0.5mg/day is sufficient.

Proviron (Mesterolone)
Proviron is an anabolic steroid with little direct anabolic properties. It has good binding qualities with the androgen receptor, but most never reaches the androgen receptor in muscle tissue, as it is enzymatically converted to diol. It is however effective as an anti-aromatase, and is believed to also act in an anti-estrogenic manner due to certain oestrogen receptor down-regulation, making it a very effective compound for preventing gyno. Proviron also helps restore sexual dysfunctions caused by steroid cycling, helping to increase sexual desire as a result of the increased androgen levels, a downside can be permanent erections in some males which at first may sound fantastic but can be extremely painful, in which case the dose should be lowered or discontinued. Proviron will also help reduce excess bloating caused by water retention.

Proviron can be used effectively throughout clomid therapy as it displays no signs of inhibiting the HPTA (see article 'Clomid and HCG'), and is helpful in keeping androgen levels elevated until natural testosterone production is restored correctly. The androgenic activity is also responsible for the distinct hardening of muscles and is one reason it is often favoured leading up to competitions.

Dosing
Proviron is supplied in 25mg tablets.
Usual dose is between 25 to 100mg/day, in most cases 25 to 50mg/day is sufficient. Dose is best split am and pm.

estrogen receptor antagonists
estrogen receptor antagonists are weak estrogens which bind strongly to a hormone receptor, but do not activate the receptor and make it unresponsive to the stronger oestrogenic hormones present due to the aromatisation of steroids.

Nolvadex (Tamoxifen citrate)
Nolvadex is not a steroid but a triphenylethylene with potent anti-estrogenic properties. Its clinical use is primarily in chemotherapy for cancer patients. It is very useful and successful in combination with a steroid regimen at reducing water retention and preventing gyno. Nolvadex is probably the most commonly used anti-estrogen mainly due to its mostly positive effects, availability and low price. Controversy surrounds the fact that it anecdotally appears to reduce gains made on a cycle, mostly due to reduced water retention, but most users agree that losses, if any, are minimal and its always difficult to say what gains may have been made in its absence.

Dosing
An effective dose seems to be 10 to 20mg/day.
At first signs of a possible gyno, take 20mg/day until symptoms subside, then 10mg/day until completion of cycle and post-cycle Clomid therapy.

Clomid (Clomifen)
Like Nolvadex, Clomid is not a steroid but a triphenylethylene with anti-estrogenic properties. The two compounds are structurally similar and their mechanism of action is also similar.

The general consensus though, is that Clomid is best left as a post-cycle natural testosterone recovery product and a more appropriate anti-estrogen found, as Clomid does not seem to be as effective in this role.

Progestins
The presence of progesterone in male bodybuilders is through the use of the progestins, i.e. Oxymetholone (Anadrol, Anapolan50), Trenbolone (Finaject, Parabolan) and Nandrolone (Deca durabolin). A large problem for the bodybuilder is that the symptoms displayed by progesterone are identical to those of oestrogen, but the concurrent use of the typical anti-estrogens appears to have no effect in controlling or treating it.

Progesterone tends to aggravate oestrogen induced gyno symptoms, making them more difficult to cure. We will look at some methods of avoiding or controlling them, bearing in mind that progesterone actually requires estrogen presence to activate it in the first place.

Use with non-aromatising steroids
If progesterone requires oestrogen presence to activate it, then one method of avoiding this would be to use the progestins in stacks with non-aromatising steroids. Amazingly heavy androgenic steroids like Anadrol and Trenbolone are exceptionally mild and safe with regard to female characteristics when used in conjunction with non-aromatising steroids like Primobolan or Winstrol. This is great news for the gyno-prone individual who has previously avoided these stronger steroids for fear of gyno development. A simple stack of Anadrol and Primobolan will go along way to packing on some serious mass without the worry of developing gyno.

Competitive Aromatase Inhibitors
If aromatising steroids are to be included in the stack with progestagenic steroids, then the concurrent use of Competitive Aromatase Inhibitors, like Arimidex or Proviron, would also seem a sensible option. These can be incorporated to keep oestrogen levels low and avoid the activation of the progesterone. Although they will not help with already developed progesterone induced gyno, they can certainly be employed to avoid its development. As usual, the amount of aromatase inhibitor required increases with increasing dose of aromatising steroids used, but the best dose is still the minimum amount that can be got away with to produce the desired effect.

Winstrol
The use of Winstrol is also an effective method of controlling progesterone-induced gyno, as it is anti-progestagenic. An effective dose appears to be in the vicinity of 50mg eod (depot) or 30 to 35mg/day (tabs) although this dose may require increasing depending on the doses being employed in the stack.

One important point worth mentioning is, although generally the progestins do not aromatise, there is an exception to this rule: Deca, as well as being a progestin also aromatises, only very slightly, but nevertheless, still does to some extent. Although this is not nearly enough to cause the large majority any problems at all, for those extremely sensitive to gyno, this small amount of aromatisation to oestrogen can be enough of an elevation to activate the progesterone. Very few people are likely to suffer this, but we feel it is a point worth mentioning.

By Bigfella - muscletalk.co.uk moderator

[basskiller]

I am starting this thread after tons of reading, and taking advice from the more prominent members from various boards. I just wanted to summarize a bunch of useful threads here, bringing it together in one post and simplifying the popular substances used to control estrogen/progesterone/cortisol and restore natural test levels. Ill go over the compounds briefly, and summarize at the end of the post. I'd like to thank Hooker for his input on this thread. A few defenitions before you start :

SERM's (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator): These block certain estrogen receptors, depending on the drug, and dont actually lower estrogen in the blood. Estrogen is left to circulate with nowhere to go. Because of this, SERMS have a posotive effect on cholesterol levels. They have a negative effect on IGF-1, so if bulking, only take them if totally necessary. They are good at blocking gyno, and are commonly used while cycling and in PCT.

AI's (Aromatase Inhibitors): There are 2 types of AI's. Type I (suicide inhibitor) attaches to the aromatase enzyme and permanently disables it. Type II compete for the enzyme, but dont destroy it. Both are effective at lowering estrogen substantially. Both are commonly used during both cycling and PCT. Used mainly when low estrogen levels are desired, like contest preparation/cutting. Beware that lowering estrogen with strong AI's can have a negative effect on cholesterol levels.

RI's (Reductase Inhibitors): These drugs stop the conversion of testosterone into DHT wherever 5-alpha reductase enzymes are present. RI's work by blocking the action of the 5-alpha. There are 2 5a's. Type I 5a and Type II 5a. Different RI's block one or both of these 5a's.

Estrogen: The first hormone we need to keep an eye on. Many AAS convert to estrogen via the aromatization process. Some AAS are worse than others. Also, estrogen spikes after a cycle. High levels of estrogen leads to gyno, water retention, fat storage etc. Estrogen plays a key role in progesterone related gyno. We either block its receptors with SERMS or reduce its production with AIs. We watch estrogen levels during a cycle and in PCT. Lowering estrogen too much will mess up your blood lipids. Letting it get out of control will cause sides like gyno, water retention etc. Estrogen plays a role in IGF-1 levels, may lower IGF-1 when blocked. Estrogen is also beneficial hormone when bulking, promoting higher androgen receptor concentrations. It also is beneficial in another way - its supposed to act as an anti-inflammatory - this means blocking or reducing it too much during a heavy bulking cycle can result in injury to joints. Obviously different estrogen levels are desired for different goals, and it is not always good to block its action or its production.

Progesterone: Its not so much progesterone that we watch, which is actually a healthy hormone, but progestins which may act upon its receptors. Progestins, like Tren or Deca, may act on its receptor or lower progesterone in the blood. Gyno and lactating are more common side effects. Some people use progesterone receptor blockers to combat this, or a prolactin production inhibitor.

Cortisol: The third hormone, the stress hormone. When elevated to long, it will store fat. Eat muscle. Cause lethargy. Moodiness. You may crave carbs by the boat load. Cortisol spikes after a cycle because AAS blocks it while on cycle, upping cortisol production and receptor sites. IMO not enough attention is payed to this. It has special functions in the body that are absolutely necessary, like its anti-inflamitory ability. However, when elevated for long periods, it turns into a muscle eating beast. The most important time to watch cortisol is after a cycle, when it spikes.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that you brushed up on some defentions, here are some useful compounds :


SERMS (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulation)

Nolvadex (Tamoxifen Citrate): Nolvadex is a SERM. It selectively binds to certain estrogen receptors, effectively blocking the estrogen and stopping unwanted sides such as gyno. It DOES NOT lower estro levels in the blood, it only blocks it from binding to certain receptors. It also helps your blood fat levels. It does not suppress LH, blocks desired estro receptors and helps stop HCG from desensitizing your testicles to natural LH. Nolva should be used during HCG therapy, at 20 mg a day, for the reason i just mentioned. Can be used during cycle if you see signs of gyno. Its mainly used to block the estrogen spike when you come off cycle, and should be used right through to the end until natural test levels are back. One drawback to consider about Nolva is that it may cause progesterone receptors to become more sensitive. This means that while using progestins such as Deca or Tren, you may become more sensetive to progestin related gyno.

Faslodex (Fulvestrant): Approved for use in 2002 for breast cancer research, this drug is unlike most we have seen. It is classified as an estrogen receptor downregulator. It prevents estrogen from exerting its influence on the estrogen receptor. Similar to Nolvadex, but is not selective. It hits all estrogen receptors. It also does this to progesterone receptors to a lesser degree. It is injectable, at 250mg a month. No information on how it affects blood lipids. It is also very expensive.

Clomid (Clomiphene Citrate): This drug is also a SERM, almost identicle to Nolva. It is said to be a weaker blocker mg for mg than Nolva. Its common use is in PCT, usually for about a month, used after HCG and all AAS esters have run out of your body. Even though it is weaker than Nolva at blocking, it is believed to be quicker at bringing HPTA back to balance. Both are commonly used during PCT. It binds to different receptors than Nolva. There is a lot of debate on this, but until there is solid proof, it may be prudent to include this in your PCT. Commonly taken at about 100mg a day.

Fareston (Toremifene Citrate): This is a second generation SERM. Approved for use in 1997. Chemically very similar to Nolva and Clomid, it is less powerful mg for mg. Fareston may have a stronger posotive effect on your cholesterol levels. For those who find this an important issue, this is a drug of choice. Used every day at around 60mg.

Evista (raloxifene): A newer SERM, Evista is shown to be a blocker in breast tissue, but acts as a receptor agonist in bone tissue (unlike Nolvadex). This action promotes bone density. Taken at about 60mg a day. Evista may prove to be very beneficial, as it also helps cholesterol levels (like Nolvadex). Evista is supposed to have a more powerful gyno blocking effect than Nolvadex.

Cyclofenil: Much like Nolvadex, this is also a SERM. Used at about 600mg a day, it is weaker mg for mg. A good alternative if Nolva is not available, which is usually not the case.


AI (Aromatase Inhibitors)

Teslac (Testolactone): This is a first generation steroidal aromatase inhibitor. Like a suicide, it permanently attaches to the aromatase enzyme. Taked at a maximum of 250mg a day. It is not as strong as the newer AI's, but some people still like to use it. It can lower estrogen about 50%. Streroidal in structure, it has no anabolic effect.

Aromasin (Exemestane): This drug is classified as a Type I Suicide AI. It binds to the aromatase enzyme and kills it. It is effective at lowering estrogen up to 85%. Once again, you have to watch out for your cholesterol levels. Used mainly for cutting when low estrogen levels are desired. Aromasin is shown to help bone density. Clinical doses are about 25mg a day, but it has been shown that as little as 2.5mg a day can be as effective.

Lentaron (Formestane): A Type I Suicide AI. Lentaron is not classified as a drug, and can be sold over the counter as a suppliment. Not as strong as the third generation AIs (arimidex, femera). Can lower estrogen by about 60%. Used as an injectable, it is dosed at about 250mg every 2 weeks. Due to poor bioavailability, daily doses of oral Lentaron are about 250mg.

Arimidex (Anastrozole): This is a widely used type II AI. It competes with estrogen for the aromatase enzyme. This effectively lowers estrogen up to 80% in the blood. Approved for use in 1995 to fight breast cancer. At doses up to 1mg a day, it has been shown to be very effective at controlling estrogen while on cycle or in PCT. It is usefull for curbing the effects that come with aromatizing AAS's while in cycle, and can be used in PCT. Nolvadex is shown to decrease the effectiveness of Arimidex when used together. In this case a suicide inhibitor may be more well suited, like in PCT. It is also called L-dex, in its liquid form.

Femera (Letrozole): Letro is a competative Type II AI also. Also farely new compared to other compounds, it is shown to be effective at lowering estrogen by blocking the aromatase enzyme. Doses up to 2.5mg a day are used, but usually as low as .5mg a day can be just as effective. Clinical studies show Femera to lower estrogen by 75-78%. Once again, watch out for you blood lipids (cholesterol) to get out of whack. There may a noted rebound effect of estrogen levels that goes along with Letro use.


Cortisol Control

Cytadren (aminoglutethimide): This drug has the ability to reduce cortisol at higher doses (1000mg a day), and act as an AI at lower doses (250mg a day). The cortisol effect is shortlived if taken for a number of consecutive days. Can lower estrogen a lot, anbout 90%. The higher dose has a long list of sides. More effective as an AI.

Mirtazapine: This is used to lower cortisol. Even though it may be effective in cortisol control, Johan has pointed out that it may cause some phycological side effects, like making you feel like a zombie. Here is a pubmed abstract for is effects on cortisol levels, amoung other things.http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...1&dopt=Abstract

Cytodyne (Phosphatidylserine): This is also used to lower cortisol, but is only effective in lowering about 30%. There are other ingredients in Cytodyne than Phosphatidylserine. Phosphatidylserine is the only real proven ingredient to lower cortisol, or so ive gathered so far. Effective at 800mg a day of PS as an ingredient.

Vitamin C: At doses of about 1.5 grams a day, can have a lowering effect on elevated cortisol, not to mention its other healthy effects.


LH Repalacement Therapy - Testosterone Stimulating Drugs

HCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin): HCG is a replacement for your natural LH (luteinizing hormone). LH is what your body produces to tell your testicles to produce natural testosterone. LH levels drop when using AAS (HPTA suppression). Using HCG while on cycle prevents testicular shrinkage, speeding PCT when the time comes. Using Nolva while using HCG helps stop HCG from de-sensitizing your testicles to natural LH. In my opinion, any decent cycle/PCT should include HCG. It has been suggested to me that HCG can be used throughout a cycle at 500iu E4D, or in the last couple weeks of your cycle at a higher dose, like 1000iu EOD. This is done before PCT starts with Clomid, as it is no good to mix the two. Always include Nolva with your HCG, they work together well. My suggested doses are not concrete, and you should be careful not to overdose and desenstize your testicles to LH. HCG has an active life of about 3 days. Vitamin E is a booster, read the next one :

Vitamin E: As Hooker pointed out to me, vitamin E increases the response to HCG. This may be useful in making the low doses of HCG we use more effective at growing back shrunken testicles. Doses can be generally 1000iu a day while using HCG.


Progesterone Control

Lilopristone, Onapristone: These are progesterone blockers also, said to be safer and possibly more effective than RU-486 when it comes to progesterone blocking. They were developed after RU-486 in an attempt to make more effective, less harsh drugs to block progesterone.

Dostinex (Cabergoline), Bromo (Bromocriptine), B-6: These are used for Deca/Tren gyno sides. This type of gyno is related to progesterone and its receptors. Tren/Deca may act on the progesterone receptor, as they are progestins, and may increase prolactin in the blood (causing lactating). These drugs stop production of prolactin at the pituitary gland. Controlling estrogen levels with an AI also helps here, as progestins themsleves haven't been proven to cause gyno.

RU-486 (Mifepristone - abortion pill): This drug has the ability to block estrogen, progesterone AND cortisol. It may or may not be very well tolerated, but I would like to find out more about it, as it is used in the bodybuilding world. In PCT it is used to block cortisol and progesterone. A powerful drug that may turn out to be a good choice, but i need more evidence and feedback from experience useing RU-486. Check out this thread i have going if you would like to learn more about it :
forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=180912


RI's (5a Reductase Inhibitors)

Proscar (Finasteride): This is primarily a Type II 5-alpha blocker. This means that when you are taking a high dose of testosterone, the resulting conversion of test to DHT in certain parts of the body become to high for ones own comfort, mainly hairloss and prostate enlargement. This is where the type II 5a enzymes are mainly found. This will not work against AAS that are already highly androgenic by design, without conversion. AAS like Tren will still exhibit high androgenic properties. Used at doses up to 5mg a day.

Avodart (Dutasteride): Like Proscar but newer and more effective at blocking the effects of DHT in not only the scalp and prostate (which are Proscar's main strengths) but also in the skin, effectively reducing acne. This is because Avodart will block both Type I and Type II 5-alpha enzymes, covering more of the problem areas due to DHT. Available in .5mg softgels, this is an effective dose. Approved for use in 2002.


Fat Burning, Anti-Catabolic

Clen (Clenbuterol): Clenbuterol is a bronchodilator. Everyone knows clen is used to burn fat. Why am I listing it here in a PCT thread? Well, for its anti-catabolic properties. Clen may lower the effect of AAS while on cycle, so I personally dont use it while cycling. It does, however, have an effect on cortisol levels. While on cycle, cortisol is not to much of a problem if you eat right. AAS use increases cortisol production, and increases receptor sites. This means that when you finish a cycle, cortisol spikes along with estrogen. This is a part of the "crash" that is often overlooked. People have reported that blocking cortisol in PCT speeds along fat loss. Clen is supposed to have a blocking effect on cortisol. So, along side of its ability to burn fat, it is anti catabolic in it ability to block cortisol until desired hormone levels are achieved in PCT. For me, it makes sense to use clen in PCT until desired hormone levels are achieved, as it also burns away fat in the process.



SUMMARY

All AAS can supress the HPTA, even in small doses, thus lowering natural LH. Factors that affect ones ability to recover quickly are genetics, cycle length or steroid type. Some AAS will shut you down hard and fast, some not so bad. Some lucky people can rebound quickly without medications, but many need it to avoid a crash and losing muscle/gaining fat. It is in our best interest to use the appropriate medications in the CORRECT doses to keep sides down (like bloat), grow quickly and keep quality mass when we are done our cycles. Most of us can get away with using 2 or 3 compounds to keep sides to a minimum, rebound quickly, and keep gains we worked hard for. Higher levels of AAS (and therefore higher estrogen/progestins) may require more intense hormone control and heavier PCT. Remember, we are aiming to level out estrogen, progesterone, cortisol and testosterone. In PCT, we are trying to achieve equilibrium of the HPTA, getting FSH (follicle stimulating hormone) and LH (luteinizing hormone) back to normal. Keeping our hard earned gains is obviously our first priority. I hope this post helps out, as i wrote it for beginners who are having a hard time searching through the massive amount of info... this thread will be updated as often as i learn something new... enjoy!

SOON TO BE ADDED: recommended uses for cycling and PCT of the most popular compounds listed above.

~DB~

Originally posted by Drummerboy

[jboldman]

i would be very careful not to depend on proviron as an anti-e for gyno prevention since there is no research to actually support that use. By all means use it for whatever purpose you want but at least make sure that you have some actual anti-e's around just in case. proviron is very widely mentioned in the bodybuilding literature as an anti-e and anecdotally reported to work but there is, as far as i have been able to find, no actual research that demonstrates these anti-e qualities. having said that, i really enjoy having some around for the pro-sexual effects.

btw, very nice write up on tren gyno. over the years there has been a lot of mythology built up over this drug. i look back to when it first became popular via implant conversion and life was pretty simple back then. you(at least I) never heard anyone report any gyno even at these astronomical doses. as it became more popular and the daily dosing became more extreme reports starting filtering in and all the internet gurus had a go at causes and cures.

jb

[basskiller]

Agreed !!
here is what I suggested in another thread and was the direct cause of me finding these articles for people to read

Progesterone related gyno
things that have been found to be effective

Cabergoline (brand names Dostinex and Cabaser)
Low doses of Bromocriptine
Chasteberry (Vitex) Maybe not the best to be relied upon, but some have shown improvements
Hydergine stacked with Selegine again at low doses (liquid version is easier to control at smaller doses)