World Class Bodybuilding   Forum

BulkSupplements Egg Whites International A1Supplements.com i-Supplements HideMyAss
Go Back   World Class Bodybuilding Forum > Articles By Author > Dharkam Articles

Shoutbox
Loading...





Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-21-2013, 05:20 AM
basskiller's Avatar
basskiller basskiller Is online now
Administrator

 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Bodybuilding heaven
Posts: 120,223
Thanks: 3,283
Thanked 18,132 Times in 10,500 Posts
Rep Power: 3752
basskiller has a reputation beyond reputebasskiller has a reputation beyond reputebasskiller has a reputation beyond reputebasskiller has a reputation beyond reputebasskiller has a reputation beyond reputebasskiller has a reputation beyond reputebasskiller has a reputation beyond reputebasskiller has a reputation beyond reputebasskiller has a reputation beyond reputebasskiller has a reputation beyond reputebasskiller has a reputation beyond repute
The ‘How-To” of PGF2

The ‘How-To” of PGF2


The how-to of PGF2
Q: How long should you use PGF2, do you cycle it or is there no need to come off it?
A: Bodybuilders are so used to steroid cycling that it is legitimate to wonder about the necessity of cycling PGF2. After more than 50 years of both continuous usage and scientific research, no one has been able to come up with a universal steroid cycling pattern that could suit everyone. Do not expect that after such a limited experience with PGF2, anyone could come up with an optimal cycling pattern. So let’s look at a rational way of cycling. If you are off steroids for 2 months at a time, your PGF2 cycle should last 2 months in order to turn this potential wasting period into an opportunity to pack on lean muscle.
Another way of looking at PGF2 cycling is to use it for as long as you can stand it. PGF2 usage is not as comfortable as steroid use. Most bodybuilders are not motivated enough to inject several times a day for more than 60-90 days at a time. So, here is your cycle length. It is counterproductive for bodybuilders to use drugs reluctantly.
As far as the need to come off is concerned, there is as much need to come off prostaglandins as need to come off steroids. Although everyone should discontinue anabolics from time to time, most pros never do. If you use PGF2 just to look good on the beach, yes, you should come off. If you have to make a living from body, you may not have much choice.

Q: How long does it take to see the first results?
A: Cosmetically speaking, less than a week. Most of the early gains are due to the diuretic properties of prostaglandins. Then you realize that your muscles get very hard even when relaxed. To get a similar hardening effect, you would have needed quite a bit of steroids. You will also remark quickly that the overall shape of your muscles is much more pleasing. To understand what I mean, take a picture of yourself and compare it to the picture of a pro. You will notice that the pro’s muscles are fuller and rounder. Again, you could duplicate this with long and heavy cycles of steroids. PGF2 simply speeds up this process. In one or two weeks of PGF2, you can achieve what could have taken one to two years of continuous steroids to obtain as far as muscle roundness is concerned.

Q: What sort of gains can I expect from the use of PGF2, and how much fat can I lose e.g. average man 200 pounds, bodybuilder, with a normal fat layer?
A: Please understand that PGF2 is not a weight gainer. The first use of steroids is usually associated with a tremendous weight gain. Most of it is due to water retention and often fat gains too. You can see this because steroids tend to blow up your face. Most bodybuilders’ faces, offseason, look like a fish tank. They are usually very pleased with such impressive gains, but as they try to get rid of the water and the fat to regain a leaner appearance they realize that the net pure muscle gains while on steroids are more modest. This is why you cannot transform yourself into a new Yates with only a few cycles under your belt even if you gain 30 pounds each time.
With PGF2, you may gain 5 pounds of bodyweight. This certainly does not sound like a lot. But you have to add the two or three pounds of extra water you got rid of plus the fat you are shedding. In terms of pure bodyweight gain, this is not very impressive. On the other hand, packing on lean muscles and getting rid of the fat is a better and faster way to get to the top.
As far as fat loss is concerned, it depends of course of your diet and the other drugs you are using (i.e: insulin). It is hard to make any estimate as it is impossible to differentiate the water and the fat losses. Let’s say that you can get rid of in between 5 to 10 pounds of water and fat in a matter of 8 – 10 weeks with a moderate cycle.

Q: For how long has PGF2 has been used? How was it discovered?
A: As far as I know, bodybuilders have been using prostaglandins on a regular basis for more than 5 years. Perhaps it was used before that, but I’m not aware of it. Its use has not been reported in the bodybuilding magazines. In fact, I am sure you will keep reading articles claiming prostaglandins are very bad.

About its discovery, I would say that it comes from farmers who have used this substance to grow their animals in a way that was undetectable at any drug test used by various governmental agencies. It may have leaked out from there. If it makes a steer more muscular why not a bodybuilder? But this was the easiest part — when it was first speculated that PGF2 could be a muscle builder, no one knew whether it would work.

There are many potential anabolic substances out there. Very few really work in the real world. Whenever a new substance is tried, the odds are very against it in that its chances of truly working are remote. If it does not work, is it because not enough was used, is it because it was used the wrong way or simply as it does nothing at all? The next issue is how much should be used? What are the side effects? Most of the steroid users may have been a bit scared about their first time even though millions of people have used them before. Imagine what it could be with an obscure veterinary substance that almost no one you are aware of has ever used! Fortunately, PGF2 has already been employed in women so the side effects were more or less known. A very few women did die, but it was not directly because of prostaglandins (not even PGF2) but a concomitant administration with RU 486 for abortion.

Even though the administration modes in women are very strange, PGF2 administration did not result in sudden death. Next, the type of administration had to be decided. All this is not easy, so the science of PGF2 usage is not very advanced. Ten years from now, bodybuilders will probably laugh at the way PGF2 is presently used.

Q: Is there a pro using prostaglandins? If PGF2 is not able to build up a pro rapidly, isn’t that a proof of its ineffectiveness?
A: I do not know if any pro is using PGF2 though I would not be surprised if it were so. The early use of PGF2 had to be done on drug free bodybuilders which meant beginners. If someone is already using a tremendous amount of various drugs, how can you tell PGF2 is actually working? You may feel that it is bringing an extra edge but you are not sure, nor do you know how much is due to PGF2 or the synergy between steroids and the prostaglandins. In order to really discover what PGF2 would do, only one variable (one drug) had to be used at a time. A beginner with six months to a year of consistent drug free training under his belt has no reason to experience any sudden and dramatic change on his body.

A speed-up of the muscle building process was the testimony that the prostaglandins were working. Only then, steroid users could experiment with PGF2. First it was used, while off cycle without steroids. This is again certainly not a good way to become a pro fast. But one had to figure out whether PGF2 anabolic actions were strong enough not only to prevent the muscle wasting but rather to continue to gain lean mass while off steroids. Then only, the steroid plus prostaglandin stack could be studied. The amounts of both drugs were varied to see what would happen. To sum up, the discovery of a new drug has nothing to do with building up a pro physique. Once a minimal amount of research is done, only then can pros benefit optimally from it.

What about PGE2?
Q: Isn’t PGE2 catabolic? You seem to think otherwise.
Whenever prostaglandins are mentioned, it is usually PGE2 rather than PGF2 that is discussed. The consensus is that PGE2 is bad. The main reason for this is because the early major prostaglandin study performed on muscles did suggest PGE2 was catabolic. In fact, this is what you would probably conclude after a 5 minute search on Medline. In a lesser known study, the very same scientific team admitted that they kind of messed up during their first study. It is very rare to see this study mentioned, including in scientific papers. Later, another team of scientists did indeed prove that they were in error. As most of the information in the bodybuilding world is based on hearsay and repetition, it suffices that one writer suggests PGE2 is bad, for another to repeat. You then have two different writers making the same claim, therefore the readers considered it as gospel. What I’ve not figured out yet is why only the wrong assumptions get repeated in the muscle magazines while the right information is generally omitted.

To answer your question in a more direct way: I do not consider that PGE2 is catabolic. Newer research shows that it accelerates the muscle protein turnover just like androgens. Understand that it increases both catabolism and anabolism at the same time except that it accelerates synthesis rate more than degradation. An overall gain results.
Drug testing

Q: Will PGF2 show up at drug test?
A: So far, PGF2 is not tested for. I doubt that it will ever be tested. It is a pure muscle builder, not a performance enhancer. In fact, it tends to reduce strength and performance. Furthermore, it may be very hard to test as we naturally produce some and it might be tough to differentiate between natural and exogenous prostaglandins. On the other hand, PGF2 does alter steroid hormones in many ways. For example, it might alter the testosterone/epitestosterone ratio.


Side effects

Q: After some of my own research on PGF2 I have found a few ways of overcoming a few of the side effects. As you said in your paper, the side effects were bronchoconstriction and violent spasms of the intestines and bowel. Could you take salbutamol (Ventolin Inhaler for asthmatics) for relief of the tightening of the chest? And could you also take an anti-spasmodic drug such as Mebeverine Hydrochloride, which is used in irritable bowel syndrome complaints, to relief the spasms of the bowels and intestines?
A: Beta agonists can help reduce the bronchoconstriction (which does not occur in all users) but it is not an ideal solution. First, because it does not completely prevent it. Second, it will increase the tightening of the muscles. This is going to truly impress your fellow bodybuilders as they touch your “relaxed” muscles but it makes it very hard to train.
As far as the intestines are concerned, this is disturbing at first, then you realize there is a rapid reduction of the impact of PGF2 so that it is not so disturbing. You also get used to it. It may be wiser not to mess around with additional drugs.


Q: Are there any drugs or supplements that will prolong the half life of PGF2 in the body?
A: Sure there are. I just do not know which ones.
Aspirin and prostaglandins

Q: I have read that aspirin can effect prostaglandins in the body, is this true or does it not apply to PGF2, and should I avoid any other substance which can effect PGF2?
A: It is true that aspirin is a prostaglandin inhibitor. At normal dosage, it only weakly affects the muscle prostaglandins. But whenever you use aspirin, your muscle insulin sensitivity is reduced because of a lesser secretion of muscle prostaglandins. Several people did report a significant muscle growth after discontinuing aspirin. Prostaglandins will also affect your adipose tissue both directly and indirectly. Because of the aspirin-induced insulin resistance, your insulin secretion will increase in order to make up for the weaker effects in muscles, resulting in an excess of insulin effect within the adipose tissue. Insulin promotes fat aggregation if unopposed. Therefore, I do not recommend continual use of aspirin for bodybuilders unless you want to get smaller and fatter. Of course, the dose also matters. A little bit of aspirin may not hurt much while high doses will.

Paradoxically, for someone who has no adipose tissue problem, it may be interesting to “play” with aspirin. As I said, a muscle gain usually results from aspirin discontinuance. Chances are it is because muscles try to overcome the inhibitory action of aspirin on prostaglandin secretion. Once you stop aspirin, there is a rebound in the muscle production of prostaglandins (i.e: there is an excess of prostaglandins) leading to muscle growth. It may be possible to do small but repeated cycles of aspirin in order to boost growth this way. This is a worthwhile way to pursue. For those who desires to try this more “natural” approach, do not forget to use small doses oral PGE1 in order to minimize the side effects of aspirin on the gastrointestinal tract plus high doses of a prostaglandin precursor such as primrose oil.
DNP and prostaglandins

The following is not a question but rather a remark that I would like to address in a prostaglandin way:

“I feel that DNP, in doses of 2mg/kg can be an effective anabolic agent. I just can’t tell all the mechanisms why it works so well.”
Whenever one studies prostaglandins, one hears about DNP a lot. DNP causes cellular damages which results in prostaglandin leaks. PGE2 release in particular is severely increased as a result of the addition of DNP. At first, scientists speculated that it was because of the PGE2 elevation that cell damages appeared (the catabolic theory of PGE2). The mere addition of aspirin proved this theory wrong. Whenever aspirin is administered along with DNP, PGE2 release was inhibited yet, cellular damage remained. Therefore, PGE2 release is the consequence and not the cause of the cellular damage. All this to say that DNP will cause muscle damage a bit like training does. But unlike a workout-induced damage, it is not localized to a single muscle group but is rather spread all over. Of course, the body will try to stop or minimize the wasting process that DNP is trying to trigger. Your body will try to calm down the main catabolic pathways DNP puts into play. Once DNP is discontinued, the rate of protein degradation in the muscle will be restricted a a bare minimum while the long-lasting prostaglandin leaks will keep on going. The end result is that the rate of synthesis is boosted while the catabolic pathways are slowed. We are then placed in the most favorable situation possible to build muscles fast.


Q: Can I stack DNP with PGF2 for better thermogenic response?
A: I would say no as I speculate that DNP thermogenic actions require the release of prostaglandins or at least employ similar pathways. To determine this for sure, scientists (do not try this at home) could use very high doses of aspirin a bit before DNP to determine whether the thermogenic response is affected. The same kind of result should be realized with Dantrolene as an inhibitor.


Q: Where is it possible to obtain PFG2? Is it illegal as AS are?
A; Try your best guess on this one!


Q: Does it come in only veterinary form?
A: No, but it is the cheapest and easiest form to get.


Q: What dosage (in cc’s) should I use at each injection?
A: All the info I could give you were provided in the part III of the prostaglandin article series. You are on your own for the rest. Of course, I could pretend to know all this. The truth is I do not know how much YOU should use. I do not even know if you should use PGF2 in the first place.


Q: I have never used steroids, is this a prerequisite? It just seems that PFG2 is more in line with my goals of losing bodyfat while developing muscle. I was about to cycle some Test enanthate, as my first time, should I do that first?
A: No, you do not have to have several cycles of steroids under your belt to get the most out of PGF2. Although — you may want to use testosterone first because it is easier. This way you could first get used to the needle manipulations plus all the little things that are part of the education of a bodybuilder.
Ripped off


Q: Thank you so much for your time and knowledge. I also enjoyed your article about prohormone stacking which appeared in the [name of company elided] buyers guide.
A: Thanks, but the trouble is I’ve never seen this prohormone stack nor did I ever write for them, nor do I recommend any of their products. This is funny as I am not the only one complaining about it. They seem used to this kind of misleading marketing ploy.
Did I make mistakes?


Q: This may be a memory lapse :-), but I thought that Dantrolene was used in some hyperthermia crisis conditions. Someone suggested that it was stacked with Lutalyse, which itself could elevate T. Wouldn’t that be contradictory? Or was it the actual intention?
A: True, it is a contradiction to use both a thermogenic with an anti-thermogenic drug if your main goal is to get leaner. My article was entitled “grow off steroids” which was mainly concerned with muscle growth and not as much with fat loss.


Q: Dharkam, Excellent article on PGF2, but where in this world can we find it? I know it’s for animal use so I checked two local animal stores, neither of them even heard of it. It sure is a bitch when you read about the new cutting edge shit, but then can’t find it til about a year down the road.
A: You may want to go to a store selling bigger animals and not pets. If all the drugs were both freely available and cheaper, bodybuilders would be far bigger. You may feel better by knowing your problem is a problem everyone faces.
From a single unsatisfied reader.


Q: In his article “Grow Even When Off Steroids: Part 2″ Dharkam makes a couple of incorrect predictions. Dantrolene taken before a workout will certainly reduce exercise performance effectively cancelling any benefits accrued from its ability as a calcium channel blocker.
A: I sure made more than a couple of mistakes if you do not understand what you read. Here is what I said: “What you want is for Dantrolene to produce its magic right AFTER but NOT during the workout. If your training lasts less than one hour, you can take Dantrolene before your workout. This way, the drug will kick in at the right time.” The misunderstanding may come from the fact that you assume oral Dantrolene works as soon as you have swallowed it. As with most of the oral drugs, it takes a while before the molecule starts working.


Q: You recommend amrinone as a Ubiquitin-Protease inhibitor. The anabolic effects of amrinone are due to its effects as a PDE3 inhibitor and the corresponding release of insulin. Dharkam suggests the use of insulin in conjunction with PDE3 inhibitors, but fails to mention what a potentially lethal combination this is. All PDE3 inhibitors cause an increase in insulin tolerance, a release of insulin, and an increase in plasma glucose. If the PDE3 is eliminated while insulin concentrations are excessively high a hypoglycemic coma may result.
[Editor's note: PDE3 = Phosphodiesterase 3]
A: You are discounting the lipolytic properties of Amrinone. Amrinone + insulin is safer than insulin alone. Insulin will deprive the blood of glucose while Amrinone will increase the release of fats (plus glycerol) which will serve as energy replacement leaving what is left of glucose for the brain. Insulin is certainly not safe if you do not know what you are doing — this is why I recommended oral insulin boosters first, rather than straight insulin. Amrinone was not my first pick either as an anti-catabolic. Alone it is best while on a diet but this was not what the article was mainly dealing with. By the way, if you want everything to be safe do not use drugs and do not get involved in bodybuilding.


written by Dharkam
__________________

W C B B Sponsors
Species Nutrition
Suppz.com - Supplement Superstore
PrecisionPinz
Superpeptides


W C B B Affiliates
PowderCity.com
BulkSupplements.com
HideMyAss Security Proxy<---- Protect your online activity
Home Chemistry Conversions
Egg Whites International <---100% Bio-Available Egg White Protein


Remember... Any advice given on this board is just an opinion and not to be taken as medical advice. WCBB doesn't advocate or condone use of steroids. Check the laws in your country. WCBB just provides the platform in which to discuss such matters
Reply With Quote
Get your liquid egg whites here at EGG WHITES INTERNATIONAL

Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:19 PM.



Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
follow worldclassbodybuilding at facebook follow worldclassbodybuilding at pinterest follow worldclassbodybuilding at twitter